Pam Coronado-initiated thread on FB

Feb 8, 2013

Pam Coronado

I needed to start a new thread about the future and direction of remote viewing. Arguing about the history and past is much like trying to drive the car while staring into the rear view mirror. What I love about this group is the intense passion we all bring to the table. We may not agree on certain points (structure vs freestyle) but we all agree with wanting to educate the world about the magic we all know as rv We just can't agree on the right language.

Why aren't more studies being done and papers being written? What is the role of IRVA going forward? My goal is about understanding how it all works so that we can continue to improve how it works and go out into the world and do great work. of Form

Lori Williams Amen and amen!!! Perhaps that is the role of the 2nd generation of RVers, Pam. I used to hear "So much can get done when no one worries about who gets the credit.". But if we allow our egos to drown us, if we get bogged down in "who's way is the right way" -- nothing will ever get accomplished with RV. And we can do so much to help others, it would be a shame if that were to happen.

Vanda Lavar Those are some very good points Pam

Paul H. Smith I think one of the reasons why the RV community is in the state it's in is because people HAVEN'T been paying enough attention to history. First, I see people re-re-reinventing the remote viewing wheel when a lot of what keeps getting tried was already solved years ago. (My favorite example was when Prudence Calabrese announced she had discovered a new kind of ideogram. I don't remember exactly what she called it, but it was nothing more than the spontaneous ideogram that is the core of Ingo Swann's CRV doctrine; but knowledge of it was available all along -- people just weren't paying attention to it!) You just have to get into the literature. Second, one of the reasons there is so much disagreement over who did what to whom in the past is because everyone is happy to believe his or her favorite remote viewing guru and _his_ or _her_ version of history. But this history is not opaque. Memory errors don't have to be taken as losing the facts forever. There are many clear-cut facts to be found -- (Daz Smith, for example, has found a lot of them. But you _can't_ just believe what someone remembers -- because we all remember things differently, even when there is ground truth to the matter. Real history is not relative. You have to get into the documentation, and it is well worth the effort. How many here, for example, have actually read "Mind Reach"? This is the book that started it all as far as the public is concerned. Or the papers listed and often linked in the IRVA Library? There's a lot to be had there. Sure we need to look to the present and the future. But you shouldn't ignore the past or you're bound to repeat all the same mistakes.

Okay, Pam – thanks for triggering my soapbox response!

Leigh Withrow I just received my copy of "A World Without Secrets" and was watching it. I love history, and I agree with you, it's hard to know everything about something you want to try and NEED to try, for a purpose or out of necessity. Dowsing is something I've seen my father do since I was in grade school and he taught me how it feels to find what you're looking for. Interesting that you found yourself almost reinventing the wheel with dowsing, as it does have a very rich history from the time of Herodotus, 444 BC - "A World Without Secrets".

Leigh Withrow Some of the best things have also been found completely by accident. Having someone try to learn something new by DOING it, could very well lead to a discovery of some aspect that no one expected - Something scientists live for - a discovery of something new! You never know. Never say never. Always keep experimenting.

Leigh Withrow I'm excited about the possibilities of dowsing and pinpointing a location, or ballpark of a location. Something needs to be learned that we haven't found in history or discovered as of yet to improve dowsing's ability to help locate something (a missing person). I would love to experiment and try different things until something works better than it ever has before. I love that. I'm reading and watching everything I can about what has been done Historically, but, there comes a time to keep experimenting until you find what you are seeking. I have my dowsing rods ready and although I know some about it from experience and some by just reading about it, I am ready to experiment. It can work on helping to locate things or people. I'm excited about dowsing more than I ever have been, because of the documentary "A World Without Secrets". Our troops found the Viet Cong's communication system. Hollowed-out bamboo, which were close to the tunnels they were trying to find. Who knows what one will find if they keep trying. And staying alive is a very good motivation to keep trying. And a 60% savings in search time can save lives and resources and all kinds of things. I"ll be practicing. Even though I haven't read every book about it or paper written. I will do my best to research, I love that too, but, there's nothing like trying things until you find something that works and hopefully completely surprises you. Glad I ordered the DVD. "A World Without Secrets".

Daz Smith I agree with paul 110%
The problem with people today is shortcuts -everyone wants everything today - now.

RV takes time and the past is So important - and we have major problems because people are learning the craft and going out and reteaching, selling services without enough knowledge of what they are doing and damaging it.For example Ingos original training took as much as two years, each student writing lecture notes then having to write papers one each stage and how they work - this type of thing. There was care an attention to the transfer of knowledge in a proper format. today people want to be RV masters inw weeks - and it jsut aint happening.

every day i see rv people doing projects using bad targets, bad structure and all kinds of things that have been documented by years of trial and thousands of double blind experiments and the correct way found - yet ignored because they just have not done the research, found of been shown the previous work.

The true fact is - there are hardly ANY respectable remote viewing projects and examples free of error or controversy since the military/espionage days of rv to even use as sound examples of remote viewing - why - because things like history are ignored and protocol blown. A skeptic could and would rip most of the projects I know of to shreds.

The history of remote viewing is what defines what it is today - and we as users are contributing to the eroding of the good work done so far by people like ingo, Joe, pat, hella and many, many more.

I would say - YES the future is key - but with one well trained eye always looking at the history of RV, ts genesis because there is SO much valuable data there - in the Star Gate archives alone its a treasure trove of amazingily, what works, what doesn't, who makes the best viewers, the best numbers and structures for operational teams, what makes optimal targets for rv, best times to view and so much more its all there - all researched using the best intuitive minds of our generation - yet im guessing less than 1% of the rv population have read ANY of this work.

Leigh Withrow - yes you can find most things by accident and over time - but Why do this if say for example its been done already and with one of the worlds most scientifically tested psychics (ingo). why not learn from his work - and try to move on from there instead of replication wasting time and effort?

Leigh Withrow I did Not say you can find MOST things by accident, Daz. Just to be clear about that. It is interesting how many great things have been discovered by accident. I know this because I am a student of history. And I am NOT doomed to repeat it. There is NO substitute for putting in the work and the hours to learn. And I know about "standing on the shoulders of giants". BUT, we are each unique and bring a unique perspective to everything we do. Since we ARE, each and every one of us, unique, we would be well advised to make use of that instead of have it divide us.

Daz Smith Leigh, RV like life and everything needs to be a balance.

Leigh Withrow Exactly.

Tamra Temple I agree too. The foundational documents have the research that was done and, as any researcher knows you better know the literature before claiming you're inventing or taking off on something new in the field -- or even adding something to it. That was why I put the easy to DISCUSS file numbers over top of the CIA sixteen or twenty character file number that nobody would ever be able to say to a colleague or find again in the archives. Books out there from the past century that Ingo thought were relevant are listed on his site too. Pam Coronado conference call is starting, so I have to finish this later.

Leigh Withrow I have my call with Pam Coronado on Thursday. In my fifth year with her and I don't ever see a point where I will not be her student. There is far too much to learn from her to ever stop. She will never stop learning, so, I will always be learning from her. Enjoy the teleconference, they are wonderful. I am so glad she started giving us that much of her time every week. Two hours of her undivided attention to learning. I always have to "come down" from her calls. The positive energy is just palpable and spirit moves amongst all of us. It is probably very healing, but, I don't have any data on that.

Albert Venczel We need a better reporting system. Toronto Police are a complete Joke (Ofc. Bubbles at g2o) and the higher ups cannot be trusted. (Col.Alexander=Evil) I can come up with future-see info but no one around who wants to try to prevent a disaster.
Who should i report it too?

Nathan Peters Albert, if I was working toward the same goal as you I would complete all of my session work, make my hypothesis. Then date/timestamp the work (I made a post about timemarker.org, its free). Then once it actually *happened* release the data. That would prove the veracity of the work, as long as it was nice and specific. Do that a few times and you could generate some momentum. And probably a bit of the wrong kind of attention, but I won't go there...

Tamra Temple Leigh, I just got off of our first one and wow! It was packed full of aha's. I can see why you have continued.

Pam Coronado Paul, I always enjoy a healthy dialog with you. I am not saying we need to turn our backs on the past and ignore all of the brilliant work that was done to get us to this point. Not at all. When I started to learn about CRV I was humbled and awed by the understanding of, as Stephan A. Schwartz calls it non-local awareness, that remote viewing had to offer. As Daz Smith indicated, it was like being given the keys to the car, and a Porche at that! HOWEVER, there is still much to learn and explore and new research will allow that expansion. Not re-re-inventing the wheel but furthering our understanding. I would like to re-do that study I did years ago, for example, with a much larger sampling and better controls.

Leigh Withrow You have your first volunteer!

Courtney Brown Actually, Pam and Daz are both making good points. When graduate students want to get a Ph.D., they MUST come up with something new. The best dissertations are ones that challenge the old guard in significant ways. Eventually, the old guard retire and die, and the graduate students grow older and replace them, and the cycle continues. Thus, we are always in a situation of challenging past knowledge as we march forward. On the other hand, all good dissertations have substantial literature reviews where what was discovered in the past is explained. Thus, no one should challenge the old guard without knowing what has already been done. You master the past, and then you make your own individual mark. Both Pam and Daz are correct in their own ways. I think Daz is concerned that too few people make a serious effort to understand what was done in the past, and Pam is concerned that not enough effort is made to contribute new knowledge. Worshipping the past is a dead end. But understanding the past deeply, and then challenging it as we move forward with new understanding, is really quite normal.

Simon Turnbull Don't forget a united front is what will get everyone into the future ... that was what was at the heart of my talk at the 2004 IRVA conference, "The Future of Remote Viewing"

Sandy Frost Simon, is text of your presentation available online? I'd like to read it. I echo Courtney Brown. If anything IRVA should be relegated to the role of history keeping and not much more. They've had their chance to produce new ideas or come up with new ways of bringing people together and seem to have failed miserably

Simon Turnbull It is somewhere ... I saw it not long ago ... will look for it ...

Simon Turnbull Who is running IRVA (forgive my ignorance)? ...

Simon Turnbull The abstract was titled: Is remote viewing the way of the future or is it destined to be forever a niche area of interest? ... I then discussed how psychics needed to be brought into the fold ... I went off into several tangents, but that was the core issue I felt needed to be addressed then, and guess what? ... It still needs addressing ...

Daz Smith Simon we as remote viewers ARE psychics but psychics who agree to work under specific rules - im happy for more of y'all to come on over to the light side of the force - but you'd ave to under the rules

Simon Turnbull I've been using the rules since 2003 ... and they work ... I don't need no conversion ... and always happy to learn ...

Simon Turnbull Daz, you remind me of the Masons when I joined; they would not have accepted me if I had been a member of AMORC ...

Daz Smith im happy to accept anyone under the baner of remote viewing if they actually are doing so, no matter what method they use - you can be upside down, naked whilst reading the innards of a chicken - i care not if you are doing so in protocol.

Simon Turnbull How do you know I'm naked? ... Daz, you are good ...

Daz Smith all the good viewers work naked
hey wouldn't that be a fun thread - naked viewing pics...lol

Simon Turnbull Ha ha ...

Tamra Temple LOL Daz and Simon Turnbull.

Daz Smith maybe we could do a naked viewer pic posting for charity or something

Simon Turnbull Regrettably, I lost all my porn three computers ago ...

Trish Woolaver Haha, last night I had been thinking how civil and mature this thread had been. I come here this morning, what happened?! ;D

Lori Williams Courtney voiced my sentiments exactly. Before venturing into the world of CRV 17 years ago, I studied everything I could get my hands on, including Mind Reach. I've always found the history fascinating, and I encourage my students to study it. And Paul, I know what you mean about trusting people's memories. I've found that even the best guru's have human (and therefore faulty) memories, including myself. So, YES, history IS very important. I just get exhausted with the constant debates over how things happened and which is the right way to do things. Most folks have trouble finding time to practice after investing $ into learning the structure. Reading through volumes and volumes of history is something few make time for. I don't mean to minimize the importance of what has already occurred. And as an instructor, I am meticulous about the structure. But please... Let's not bog down the future by arguing about the past. As Courtney and Leigh brought out, history proves that new discoveries will be found. The old dies and falls away, the new replaces it. I agree that we don't need to reinvent the wheel. A famous saying, "Teachers are a shortcut to learning" applies here

 Lori Williams And the saying, "A wise man learns from experience...but a wiser man learns from the experience of others.". So I do believe in learning from those who have come before. I've had students from many of the other best-known RV instructors come and take my course. And even though they've done things somewhat differently from the way I was taught, I found that those who had practiced diligently still achieved good results, some very good results.

 Lori Williams It all boils down to this: I'd like to see a future of RV that embraces newcomers into the fold, including professional psychics who want to learn structure and use it to enhance what they do and how they report. I'd like to see the science grow and expand as knowledge grows and expands. The history is vitally important, yes. But if we don't embrace the future, if we don't embrace change, RV will go the way of many other precious things: it will stagnate and die, and become a relic like an antique car.

 Lori Williams And I agree with Simon and Daz... NRV (Naked Remote Viewing) is

 Tamra Temple  J

 Vanda Lavar You guys are so funny!

 Nathan Peters Nudity posts aside, this discussion may be getting too high-powered for FB's limitations. It might be a good idea to agree on an agenda and have a roundtable webinar.

 Trish Woolaver Hahaha!

 Pam Coronado Hi Simon. IRVA has welcomed me, a psychic (CRV trained), onto their board of directors.

 Tko Seven as far as the future of RV I really like Robert Monroe's vision of the future of earth in the book FAR JOURNEYS beyond the year 3000

when they stopped measuring time

and that basically people communicate telepathically with no need for sound

and there isn't so much mental/spiritual noise around (none at all)

 Simon Turnbull Well Pam, if they've welcomed you on the board , then it must be in good hands ...

Nathan Peters A lot of the scientists who have/do research RV are "hard" science types. Possibly a better approach would be from a biological standpoint. A doctor will probably know what medicine a patient should be prescribed, but will monitor their progress to see if the dosage or medicine type is working as expected. A "this has to work 100%, 100% of the time" attitude is great for engineering but not so much for natural processes. Is there anything that could be taken from the biological sciences that would be a good fit for RV?

 Stephan A. Schwartz I had a few moment tonight in which to look in on this thread, having finished a particularly difficult section of my paper, which I will post when it is published. Let me put forward some thoughts. The reason the remote viewing community is in the state that it is, is that the data gathering technique is the least, not the most, important part.

There also seems to be a fundamental misunderstanding about what remote viewing was created for, and what it is. This addresses the psychic vs RV argument I have read. Being psychic and doing remote viewing are essentially the same thing -- opening one's consciousness to nonlocal awareness. The difference is not that there is a technique of doing it, but that there is a technique for evaluating it.

The SRI people, the PEAR people, the Mind Science people, Mobius, and all the other research groups got interested in remote viewing not because of any viewing technique but because we had worked out how to objectively verify and analyse nonlocal perception data. What makes remote viewing different is that, properly done -- correct conditions of blindness and randomization, etc. -- assures that the data is sourced nonlocally. Analysis of such data allows one to discern what is nonlocal and what is not. It allows the detection of performance patterns. In remote viewing one can objectively verify the information. The information can be shown to be accurate whatever one believes. I hope that is clear, because it is very important.

The way to go forward is to refine our understanding of the process. Once one knows one has a system for getting the pure stuff the question becomes how can I improve the take? Meditation is clearly one answer to that. How can I maximize connection with the target in the informational domain? The role of numinosity addresses that. What is the role of entropy? We are beginning to get some insights on that. How can I build a viewer profile, so that I know what a viewer is good at? This is absolutely essential in applied work. At the deepest level, how does it all work, and where does it our understanding of the universe? There's lots to do.

BTW, relative to applied work, I have asked my wonderful webmaster, Beth Alexander, to put up The Alexandria Project video as well as two of the formal papers, and the book. Taken together they represent a case study of an applications project.

 Tamra Temple thank you, Stephan

 Patty Gallagher hi pam this seems like it will turn into a long thread, so i will try to be concise. the difference between these two terms is the process, the ability to evaluate, and the ability to learn from doing the evaluation. one of the major risks in psi work is the very human temptation to hoax, and the human ego, and the very strict protocol of remote viewing is designed to help deal with that. the protocol also feeds the information to the viewer in the stages appropriate for the viewer to acknowledge and express it. The feedback experience allows the viewer to learn where their level of skill is highest and most accurate. A remote viewer is a trained psychic. Psychics, as you mean the term, in general are not trained and may be of varying skill and intent. I have watched many do cold readings, and pick up on body language, the jewelry worn by subjects, and the conversations among subjects before the actual reading begins. Let me clarify that by "trained" i mean a process that results in a disciplined and protected mind. Untrained psychics are unable to evaluate their successes in a quantifiable way. And that's where the threat of hoaxing and ego enter the picture. The purpose of remote viewing is to learn, and to help others in their quest to learn. Once we are trained remote viewers we are able to see reality with "naked awareness," not conditioned awareness, and we make great strides in our personal development. "Psychics" seem to be limiting their areas of work, preoccupied with tragedies like death, locating missing bodies and contacting the dead. The latter category seems exceptionally presumptuous, and a dangerous form of work for the untrained minds of the psychic and subject both. its really a dark road that may lead to the victimization of the subjects. You also asked what might be done with the IRVA's role...i have a lot of ideas since being at the last conference but this reply is already too long. next time!

 Jon Knowles I will also archive and link to this thread, for easier finding and reading.

 Trish Woolaver  Jon I went to your fantastic website to locate the last thread you said you would archive and all I could find was a link to this group's page. It would be great to be able to go back, as you said, to read some of these threads again as they are so informative. Where can we find the link on your page to these threads?

 Jon Knowles Trish, I've only archived one Facebook thread. It's after the first big "NEW" in red. Here's the direct link. Glad you like the site. As Nathan mentioned, we really need a better venue for long discussions like this, but so far none seems to be in the offing. http://www.mprv.net/RV%20FB%20thread1.html

remote viewing facebook thread1

Trish Woolaver Thank you Jon, much appreciated. I love the site, excellent reference resource - great job putting it all together! Thanks again.

Pam Coronado  Patty, thanks for sharing your point of view. I've heard that argument before, and each time, I find it equally fascinating. If a viewer or psychic is wasting time, talent and energy on missing person work and therefore getting lost in the dark, then that's exactly where I hope to get stuck. If turning a blind eye to tragedy is somehow taking the high road, I will choose the low road each and every time.

Patty Gallagher no wasnt saying that. AT ALL. Sorry you read that into it. I am simply remarking on the nature of remote viewing. it is more than clairvoyance. it is a trained method of clairvoyance. i was saying remote viewing isnt only or simply clairvoyance.. i practice four different kinds of divination, most of the time i have only anecdotal type of feedback. Thats why i appreciate remote viewing, it allows me to learn as a psychic, and not simply be led by memories and imagination. I think remote viewings best application is in this kind of training that leads to self awareness and better psychic skills generalized. as a trained crver i'm sure you have had that experience. People need to come to a consensus definition of what remote viewing is, and i am offering this as my opinion of what it means, and is. no psychic, or any person for that matter, has ever wasted their time when they were helping anyone. Just so yu know how i feel about helping people. And yes, i do think that one must be very cautious when involved in challenging situations.

Simon Turnbull On the subject of feedback I have developed a system that works for me ... I do indulge on occasion an apparently useless exercise where I get invited to Skeptics Conferences and debate with them the value of the psychic process ... I do this because I feel someone needs to take care of the poor souls .. Anyways, over the years in order to substantiate, albeit anecdotally, the results of my work for media purposes, skeptics and otherwise, whenever a client returns for a second visit, I ask them to write down on a specially designed form, everything that came true from their first session ... 99% agree ... in fact most can't wait to tell me, as it forms the basis for recommendations to their friends ... The point is that over the years I have amassed files of hundreds of these 'testimonials' that show something is going on that is not 'hoaxing' or resulting from exaggeration on my part ... they sign and date these documents and include their contact details; they also give me permission to use them (some ask me to change the name when I do so) ... I also record on my computer every single session and have a sizeable collection of those as well ... I burn every reading on to a cd for each client (only takes five minutes), and that proves very useful sometimes when clients lose their cd and want another copy posted out, as they want to recall exactly what was said at the session ...

Patty Gallagher what type of readings do you do simon?

Simon Turnbull Generally I do the basic human condition type readings; love, money, career, family, travel, etc., (not necessarily in that order) ... I also do a lot of business readings, because I specialise in timing of events ... I developed a system using tarot that allows accurate prediction in days, weeks, months, or years, which most psychics avoid doing, for fear of being wrong ... I do a lot of work by phone with people all over the world; clients who have originally seen me in person but have moved away ... Been doing this since 1975 semi pro, and 1979 pro, so I've taken a long time to develop my style ... I use remote viewing for special clients, who do pay me a lot more, as I can spend a day or more on an issue, but RV is not an everyday affair ... I trained myself with RV by reading all the literature ... I have nearly every book published on the subject ... David Morehouse's was my first in recent times, of course had the Puthoff/Targ book (s) in the 70's (Russell was surprised when I handed him my old copy for him to sign) ... how I go on .. I love this stuff ... Meeting Skip put me over the edge ... sorry about the ramble ...

Teresa Marshall Frisch Simon, have you considered becoming credentialed as a Life Coach?

Simon Turnbull No, I'm flat out like a lizard drinking as it is ... Maybe later ...

Sandy Frost Simon, I agree about Skip. His book is a must read. The DVD that comes with it is mind-blowing.

Ghg Mitte Very good point, Pam. Been getting the strong feeling lately that RV is ready to make another leap in clarity and advancement of technique, study protocols, purpose or role, relevancy and new branding even - within the community and with the public. The focus and intent you speak of Pam, the concrete steps you mention, are necessary to further this along..RV is going to take on a new relevancy and life I believe...Be much more broadly and deeply understood, with expanded applications...Also more integrated because of the clarity on how it fits into the whole package of fact finding, investigating, human understanding and potential.

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